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 What exactly is "Black Tip" Armor piercing ammo anyway?
AmericanPatriot1776  [Member]
1/17/2005 4:43:26 PM
I have another post about it on this site but..............

I have recently been told that regular 30-06 ammo is armor piercing. What is so special about 30-06 AP "black tip" ammo?

What was is used specifically for in the US military. What can it do that regular M2 FMJ ball ammo can not?

What is the difference between AP .223 and regular .223 (5.56).

What kind of "armor" can these actually go through?
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Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 4:47:29 PM
Steel penetrators in them. They go deeper into metal.

M193/SS192 is ball. M855/SS109 is a 62gr bullet with a 17gr steel penetrator. There is a third kind of 5.56, a tungsten penetrator, but you'll probably never see a round of it as long as you live, so its a moot issue.
SevenMMmag  [Member]
1/17/2005 4:49:23 PM
www.ammo-oracle.com
AmericanPatriot1776  [Member]
1/17/2005 4:51:17 PM

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
www.ammo-oracle.com



Thanks..................anyone have more specific info on AP 30-06 ammo?
SJSAMPLE  [Member]
1/17/2005 4:53:09 PM

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Steel penetrators in them. They go deeper into metal.

M193/SS192 is ball. M855/SS109 is a 62gr bullet with a 17gr steel penetrator. There is a third kind of 5.56, a tungsten penetrator, but you'll probably never see a round of it as long as you live, so its a moot issue.



The tungsten stuff is the black tip.
The M855 is the green tip (for US ammo)
SHIVAN  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 4:54:12 PM
www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m993.htm

SHIVAN  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 4:56:08 PM
M995 = Black Tip = Tungsten Core

Bullets from the M993 round would be the .308 diameter equivalent to the M995.
fadedsun  [Member]
1/17/2005 4:58:23 PM

Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot1776:
I have another post about it on this site but..............

I have recently been told that regular 30-06 ammo is armor piercing. What is so special about 30-06 AP "black tip" ammo?

What was is used specifically for in the US military. What can it do that regular M2 FMJ ball ammo can not?

What is the difference between AP .223 and regular .223 (5.56).

What kind of "armor" can these actually go through?



I'd like to see what black tip 3006 will do to an armored vehicle. A guy in my class at school told me his uncle has 3000 rds of black tip 3006 at his home in Georgia. He said he's going to see if he can score some for me...



Ben
Flak_Jacket  [Member]
1/17/2005 5:03:31 PM

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
www.ammo-oracle.com



wow that's a lot of useful info

thx
Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 5:05:04 PM

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Steel penetrators in them. They go deeper into metal.

M193/SS192 is ball. M855/SS109 is a 62gr bullet with a 17gr steel penetrator. There is a third kind of 5.56, a tungsten penetrator, but you'll probably never see a round of it as long as you live, so its a moot issue.



The tungsten stuff is the black tip.
The M855 is the green tip (for US ammo)



Thats what I thought, but he is asking about ought six. I do't believe there is any tungsten ought six, but I may be wrong.
SHIVAN  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 5:25:20 PM

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Steel penetrators in them. They go deeper into metal.

M193/SS192 is ball. M855/SS109 is a 62gr bullet with a 17gr steel penetrator. There is a third kind of 5.56, a tungsten penetrator, but you'll probably never see a round of it as long as you live, so its a moot issue.



The tungsten stuff is the black tip.
The M855 is the green tip (for US ammo)



Thats what I thought, but he is asking about ought six. I do't believe there is any tungsten ought six, but I may be wrong.



Projectile from the M993 is the same as would fit a handloaded 30-06.
SHIVAN  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 5:31:28 PM

Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot1776:
I have recently been told that regular 30-06 ammo is armor piercing.



Soft armor? Sure, almost any rifle is.....up to a certain protection level of soft armor. I believe IIIA and IV are able to stop a few shots to the plates before they fail. I will let a "vest expert" chime in there.


What is so special about 30-06 AP "black tip" ammo?


It's handloaded armor piercing ammo. Usually brewed up extra hot and uses the tungsten cored military projectiles to punch hard targets.


What was is used specifically for in the US military.


The .mil no longer uses 30-06 as standard issue. I believe they used regular copper covered lead core "ball ammo" back in the day.


What can it do that regular M2 FMJ ball ammo can not?


M2 ball is .50 caliber FMJ ammo....different league. .50 caliber ball won't punch all armor BTW...


What is the difference between AP .223 and regular .223 (5.56).


Read the link above to the Ammo Oracle.


What kind of "armor" can these actually go through?


I know I can stop SS109 NATO with 3/8" AR500 Special Abrasion Resistant plates.

Not sure what the design spec was though....check the ammo oracle for that too.
NightWatchman  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 9:47:59 PM




M995, who says 5.56 is a poor penetrator?
RyJones  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 9:53:44 PM
the black paint lubes the bullet so it can get through the metal easier.



I was talking to a pyrotechnician (licensed in .wa.us) and I asked him if he knew what was in tracers, he said it was probably just the orange paint on the tip flaking off
Lion_Dog  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 10:06:21 PM

Originally Posted By RyJones:
the black paint lubes the bullet so it can get through the metal easier.



I was talking to a pyrotechnician (licensed in .wa.us) and I asked him if he knew what was in tracers, he said it was probably just the orange paint on the tip flaking off






He be da Subject Matter Expert!
brouhaha  [Team Member]
1/17/2005 10:14:26 PM

Originally Posted By Flak_Jacket:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
www.ammo-oracle.com



wow that's a lot of useful info

thx



Thank you.
JB69  [Member]
1/18/2005 1:05:53 AM

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Flak_Jacket:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
www.ammo-oracle.com



wow that's a lot of useful info

thx



Thank you.




Hey Brou.... Might be just me, But I think all the links on your page there are FUBAR'd

Each one come up as...

file:///E:/Documents and Settings/Troy/My Documents/My Web Sites/AmmoOracle/body.htm

I'm assuming they were all originally intended as anchor links, but from the url's it looks like "Troy" uploaded a copy he saved on his machine, that he saved from a browser.

Might not have had the server's directory structure set correctly in whatever he was using to make the page, as well....


Thought you'd want to know, since none of them work now....


JB


RyJones  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 7:40:40 AM

Originally Posted By JB69:
Hey Brou.... Might be just me, But I think all the links on your page there are FUBAR'd



Worked for me. Looks like it's fixed.

BTW, that's a lot of great info - holy cow!

Mahatma8Rice  [Member]
1/18/2005 7:57:02 AM
Is AP .30-06 too hot for a Garand?
M1-Matt  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 8:49:53 AM

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
Is AP .30-06 too hot for a Garand?



No. You can shoot is through a Garand all day long and not worry about it.
Happyshooter  [Member]
1/18/2005 8:56:46 AM
SHIVAN, were you pulling this guy's leg?

M2 Ball was a standard loading for 30/06. (In fact, this loading, starting in 1940, was so common that Illinois actually uses that round as a legal defination for it's explosives safety law)

Quote from Illinois law:"Bullet-Resistant" means magazine walls or doors of construction resistant to penetration of a bullet of 150-grain M2 ball ammunition having a nominal muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second fired from a .30 caliber rifle from a distance of 100 feet perpendicular to the wall or door. When a magazine ceiling or roof is required to be bullet-resistant, the ceiling or roof shall be constructed of materials comparable to the side walls or of other materials which will withstand penetration of the bullet described above when fired at an angle of 45 degrees from the perpendicular. Tests to determine bullet resistance shall be conducted on test panels or empty magazines which shall resist penetration of 5 out of 5 shots place independently of each other in an area at least 3 feet by 3 feet.

"Bullet-Sensitive Explosive Material" means explosive materials that can be detonated by 150-grain M2 ball ammunition having a nominal muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second when the bullet is fired from a .30 caliber rifle at a distance of not more than 100 feet and the test material, at a temperature of 70 to 75 F, is placed against a backing material of ½ inch steel plate.




30-06 AP was loaded by Lake City for the military, and it is way cool stuff if you want to shoot some plate and make deep holes.


Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot1776:
I have recently been told that regular 30-06 ammo is armor piercing.



Soft armor? Sure, almost any rifle is.....up to a certain protection level of soft armor. I believe IIIA and IV are able to stop a few shots to the plates before they fail. I will let a "vest expert" chime in there.


What is so special about 30-06 AP "black tip" ammo?


It's handloaded armor piercing ammo. Usually brewed up extra hot and uses the tungsten cored military projectiles to punch hard targets.


What was is used specifically for in the US military.


The .mil no longer uses 30-06 as standard issue. I believe they used regular copper covered lead core "ball ammo" back in the day.


What can it do that regular M2 FMJ ball ammo can not?


M2 ball is .50 caliber FMJ ammo....different league. .50 caliber ball won't punch all armor BTW...


What is the difference between AP .223 and regular .223 (5.56).


Read the link above to the Ammo Oracle.


What kind of "armor" can these actually go through?


I know I can stop SS109 NATO with 3/8" AR500 Special Abrasion Resistant plates.

Not sure what the design spec was though....check the ammo oracle for that too.

captainpooby  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 9:15:58 AM
I saw some black tip stuff loaded in en bloc clips for sale at the Lakeland show last weekend. Lots of it.
RyJones  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 9:27:01 AM

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
SHIVAN, were you pulling this guy's leg?

M2 Ball was a standard loading for 30/06. (In fact, this loading, starting in 1940, was so common that Illinois actually uses that round as a legal defination for it's explosives safety law)



Probably because Illinois law mirrors Federal law, which uses M2 for it's standard.
M1-Matt  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 9:46:56 AM

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot1776:
I have recently been told that regular 30-06 ammo is armor piercing.



Soft armor? Sure, almost any rifle is.....up to a certain protection level of soft armor. I believe IIIA and IV are able to stop a few shots to the plates before they fail. I will let a "vest expert" chime in there.


What is so special about 30-06 AP "black tip" ammo?


It's handloaded armor piercing ammo. Usually brewed up extra hot and uses the tungsten cored military projectiles to punch hard targets.


What was is used specifically for in the US military.


The .mil no longer uses 30-06 as standard issue. I believe they used regular copper covered lead core "ball ammo" back in the day.


What can it do that regular M2 FMJ ball ammo can not?


M2 ball is .50 caliber FMJ ammo....different league. .50 caliber ball won't punch all armor BTW...


What is the difference between AP .223 and regular .223 (5.56).


Read the link above to the Ammo Oracle.


What kind of "armor" can these actually go through?


I know I can stop SS109 NATO with 3/8" AR500 Special Abrasion Resistant plates.

Not sure what the design spec was though....check the ammo oracle for that too.




M2 AP is not " handloaded and brewed up extra hot" and is made up with a steel core not tungston core. M2 AP has a MV of 2650fps and will work in all 30 Caliber weapons that were ever used by the US Govt. M1917 Enfield, M1903/A3, M1, M1919A4/A6, M1918/A2, M37, M1917A1, etc. M2 Ball is 30cal, 50cal Ball is M33.

Matt
graywolf  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 9:54:19 AM

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Steel penetrators in them. They go deeper into metal.

M193/SS192 is ball. M855/SS109 is a 62gr bullet with a 17gr steel penetrator. There is a third kind of 5.56, a tungsten penetrator, but you'll probably never see a round of it as long as you live, so its a moot issue.



The tungsten stuff is the black tip.
The M855 is the green tip (for US ammo)

they got some on gunbrokers.com
SHIVAN  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 10:34:09 AM

Originally Posted By Happyshooter:
SHIVAN, were you pulling this guy's leg?

M2 Ball was a standard loading for 30/06. (In fact, this loading, starting in 1940, was so common that Illinois actually uses that round as a legal defination for it's explosives safety law)

Quote from Illinois law:"Bullet-Resistant" means magazine walls or doors of construction resistant to penetration of a bullet of 150-grain M2 ball ammunition having a nominal muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second fired from a .30 caliber rifle from a distance of 100 feet perpendicular to the wall or door. When a magazine ceiling or roof is required to be bullet-resistant, the ceiling or roof shall be constructed of materials comparable to the side walls or of other materials which will withstand penetration of the bullet described above when fired at an angle of 45 degrees from the perpendicular. Tests to determine bullet resistance shall be conducted on test panels or empty magazines which shall resist penetration of 5 out of 5 shots place independently of each other in an area at least 3 feet by 3 feet.

"Bullet-Sensitive Explosive Material" means explosive materials that can be detonated by 150-grain M2 ball ammunition having a nominal muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second when the bullet is fired from a .30 caliber rifle at a distance of not more than 100 feet and the test material, at a temperature of 70 to 75 F, is placed against a backing material of ½ inch steel plate.




30-06 AP was loaded by Lake City for the military, and it is way cool stuff if you want to shoot some plate and make deep holes.



Nope, I was using this as a guide.....came up in my search for M2 ball ammo.....www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/50.htm

My bad....

I also had some bad information from a Garand friend of mine who told me that he was unable to buy AP ammo in 30-06, he had to handload his own from pulled bullets from M993.

Sorry...

Even the second link I came up with corroborated my first link:

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/50.htm

mr_wilson  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 10:48:12 AM
From time to time you can purchase 30-06 Black Tip AP from folks like Talon and others that is remanufactured from USGI "pulled" components. (original brass and bullets with replaced powder and primers)

All my stock came from the late 80s, when it was very prevelent and reasonably priced. And no, none of it is for sale.....

Mike
brouhaha  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 12:06:08 PM

Originally Posted By JB69:
[Hey Brou.... Might be just me, But I think all the links on your page there are FUBAR'd

Each one come up as...

file:///E:/Documents and Settings/Troy/My Documents/My Web Sites/AmmoOracle/body.htm

I'm assuming they were all originally intended as anchor links, but from the url's it looks like "Troy" uploaded a copy he saved on his machine, that he saved from a browser.

Might not have had the server's directory structure set correctly in whatever he was using to make the page, as well....


Thought you'd want to know, since none of them work now....


JB





Thanks for the IM about this last night. All the links *should* be fixed.

If anybody finds an error, please let me know.
JB69  [Member]
1/18/2005 12:16:31 PM

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By JB69:
[Hey Brou.... Might be just me, But I think all the links on your page there are FUBAR'd

Each one come up as...

file:///E:/Documents and Settings/Troy/My Documents/My Web Sites/AmmoOracle/body.htm

I'm assuming they were all originally intended as anchor links, but from the url's it looks like "Troy" uploaded a copy he saved on his machine, that he saved from a browser.

Might not have had the server's directory structure set correctly in whatever he was using to make the page, as well....


Thought you'd want to know, since none of them work now....


JB





Thanks for the IM about this last night. All the links *should* be fixed.

If anybody finds an error, please let me know.





Glad to help


KBaker  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 12:25:46 PM
Just to give you an idea, I have some 3/8" AR400 armor plate targets. Standard 147 grain or 173 grain match .30-06 projectiles barely leave a mark on this stuff, but black-tip generally makes it most, if not all the way through. I will sometimes find the steel penetrator left in the hole.

With mild steel, non-armor piercing rounds leave deep divots and craters. AP goes right on through.

AR400 is a hardened steel designed for high-wear applications - and light armor.
RyJones  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 12:32:14 PM

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Just to give you an idea, I have some 3/8" AR400 armor plate targets. Standard 147 grain or 173 grain match .30-06 projectiles barely leave a mark on this stuff, but black-tip generally makes it most, if not all the way through. I will sometimes find the steel penetrator left in the hole.

With mild steel, non-armor piercing rounds leave deep divots and craters. AP goes right on through.

AR400 is a hardened steel designed for high-wear applications - and light armor.



You should have seen some of the metal tests I did with my 300 win mag at drill press ranges. Holy smokes! The AP just drilled little penetrator-sized holes through 3" aluminum plates. Same for tie plates (used to interface railroad tracks to railroad ties, I don't know what the technical name is)
7  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 12:36:43 PM
Thanks to Clinton (Executive order) there is NOT an infinite supply of this out there. After I believe OCT 99, no more AP / components were allowed to be sold to the public. They now destroy the components. Eventually the existing supply will dry up and no more AP, API, etc.

89hawk  [Member]
1/18/2005 1:01:18 PM
www.iidbs.com/hitech/

30 cal black tip bullets for sale.
RyJones  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 1:19:14 PM

Originally Posted By 89hawk:
www.iidbs.com/hitech/

30 cal black tip bullets for sale.



Again, I repeat my warning, his "light pull marks" mean the bullet base is in a figure 8 shape.
lostwildcat  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 1:31:13 PM

Originally Posted By RyJones:

Originally Posted By 89hawk:
www.iidbs.com/hitech/

30 cal black tip bullets for sale.



Again, I repeat my warning, his "light pull marks" mean the bullet base is in a figure 8 shape.




maybe you got a bad batch or something, i've loaded around 5k of the "pulled and polished" .556 tips and they were fine, also got 100 rounds of the black tip .30 cal and they look great?
jthuang  [Member]
1/18/2005 1:40:40 PM

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
From time to time you can purchase 30-06 Black Tip AP from folks like Talon and others that is remanufactured from USGI "pulled" components. (original brass and bullets with replaced powder and primers)

All my stock came from the late 80s, when it was very prevelent and reasonably priced. And no, none of it is for sale.....



Yeah, those were the days. I think the lowest I saw around here (in the 90s) was $5 per box of 20 cartridges, from Talon. I only bought 100 rounds. I still have them all but I wish I had purchased more.
lethalppl  [Member]
1/18/2005 1:55:22 PM
hey guys i can get 10mm talons from a store. I guess they dont sell ver many only down part is that it $1 a bullet.
Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
1/18/2005 7:22:33 PM

Originally Posted By lethalppl:
hey guys i can get 10mm talons from a store. I guess they dont sell ver many only down part is that it $1 a bullet.



As in Black Talons? Thats just an SXT bullet anyway. Different thing altogether.
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