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 How many AR15's and AK's in the UK?
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 2:13:40 AM
Hi,

This is my first post in the UK Forum and was hoping that you folks could give an idea of AR15 and AK47 straight-pull sales in the UK? Is it a decent market or just very small niche market? We build AR15's and AK47 rifles and can manufacture then in a configuration in which there is no gas system. From what I understand, as long as there isn't a gas system or readily converted to a gas system, the rifle is legal for sale in the UK.

Any help would be appreciated

thanks,
Ron
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 2:17:43 AM
I'd imagine about 5000 in total.

The problem you'd have is getting export approval though
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 2:52:25 AM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
I'd imagine about 5000 in total.

The problem you'd have is getting export approval though


What side (US or UK) would be the problem, or both?

thanks,
Ron
ACR26  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 4:04:26 AM
US
Lancair  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 4:51:55 AM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Hi,

This is my first post in the UK Forum and was hoping that you folks could give an idea of AR15 and AK47 straight-pull sales in the UK? Is it a decent market or just very small niche market? We build AR15's and AK47 rifles and can manufacture then in a configuration in which there is no gas system. From what I understand, as long as there isn't a gas system or readily converted to a gas system, the rifle is legal for sale in the UK.

Any help would be appreciated

thanks,
Ron


You could (or get a UK person) to send a Freedom of Information request to the UK police Firearms Branch.

Also, you could import 'em down under to Australia. We need more tacticool goodies. If it sold for $1000-1500, they'd probably fly off the shelves.
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 5:11:32 AM

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Also, you could import 'em down under to Australia.


No you can't
Lancair  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 6:05:29 AM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Also, you could import 'em down under to Australia.


No you can't




Really? I always figured that no one had ever bothered. Details please?
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 6:39:43 AM

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Also, you could import 'em down under to Australia.


No you can't




Really? I always figured that no one had ever bothered. Details please?


Tried that for These guys but the rifles sat in customs for 2 months before the feds refused them entry and they came all the way back.

They look too much like a military rifle and that's a no-no, or as they say in Russia nyet-nyet
Lancair  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 6:50:43 AM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Also, you could import 'em down under to Australia.


No you can't




Really? I always figured that no one had ever bothered. Details please?


Tried that for These guys but the rifles sat in customs for 2 months before the feds refused them entry and they came all the way back.

They look too much like a military rifle and that's a no-no, or as they say in Russia nyet-nyet




Well, at least we can have handguns.
Tyga  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 7:27:34 AM
As a rough guide, there are approximatly 130,000 Firearms Certificates in the UK, 370,000 firearms (and 600,000 Shotgun Certificates). The magority of them are land shooters, or precision shooters not interested in AR's.

I think Marks estimate of 5,000 is quite conservative... I beleive it is more like 8,000 AR's and AK's in the UK. You could double that number if you include .22 semi's.

The market is already reasonably crowded, and there are a lot of companies making s/pull AR's. Although if it was cheap AND good quality, it would sell, as this is rarely seen.
Wapinschaw_Shooter  [Member]
3/11/2008 8:49:32 AM

Originally Posted By Tyga:
Although if it was cheap AND good quality, it would sell, as this is rarely seen.


MEEEOOWW! Would puss like a saucer of milk?
JohanLondon  [Member]
3/11/2008 9:53:24 AM

Originally Posted By Tyga:
Although if it was cheap AND good quality, it would sell, as this is rarely seen.


In my experience, 'cheap' and 'good quality' are completely incompatible. In the UK, this is made even worse by the relatively small numbers of shooters - this is partly to blame for us paying a £ to the $ on everything...
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 10:20:46 AM

Originally Posted By JohanLondon:
...... this is partly to blame for us paying a £ to the $ on everything...



No it's not.
That's all to do with dealers trying to make a living, the exchange rate, shipping, VAT, clearance fees and adding on a, for the most part, measly profit.

All of you try doing the sums
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 11:10:01 AM
What about straight-pull G3/MP5 clones, RPK's, PKM's, 1919A4 Browning and even M240/L7's?

Here are some GPMG's that we manufactured and these would be the King of Straight Pulls.







Yes, that's a Bren MkII in the background with the daughter

Henderson Defense
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 11:17:39 AM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
What about straight-pull G3/MP5 clones, RPK's, PKM's, 1919A4 Browning and even M240/L7's?

Here are some GPMG's that we manufactured and these would be the King of Straight Pulls.

img81.imageshack.us/img81/7958/m240rightpu0.jpg

img338.imageshack.us/img338/8961/pkmkx5.jpg

img86.imageshack.us/img86/1189/postwiki1ej8.jpg

Yes, that's a Bren MkII in the background with the daughter

Henderson Defense


I wouldn't mention the HK's round here
310Cadet  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 11:17:42 AM
The only problem with one of those lovely guns is that none of the parts can have ever been on a semi or full-auto.

All parts are magically tainted if they have ever been on an section 5 (semi/full auto) and therefore cannot be used on a straight-pull gun legally.


HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 11:37:25 AM

Originally Posted By 310Cadet:
The only problem with one of those lovely guns is that none of the parts can have ever been on a semi or full-auto.

All parts are magically tainted if they have ever been on an section 5 (semi/full autoand therefore cannot be used on a straight-pull gun legally.




Ohhhh.... I see you guys have the same magically tainted laws that we have. Military M14 rifles can never be sold to civilians because they are full-auto even if the lug was milled of the rear and the the channel for the connector milled. "Once a machinegun, always a machine gun" rule

So the parts would have to be brand-new unissued parts or that wouldn't make a difference?

thanks,
Ron

thanks,
Ron
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 11:42:12 AM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:So the parts would have to be brand-new unissued parts or that wouldn't make a difference?

thanks,
Ron


Yep, brand new and never used on anything else.

Parts always retain their higher classification where appropriate.

BTW, I'd love to see you get an export license for a GPMG

One other thing that I don't understand....the US appears to be vehemently anti-UN, yet it's the US that's signed up to ITAR tighter than anyone else
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 12:01:51 PM
Do you folks in the UK have straight-pull SLR/L1A1's out there in the UK?

thanks,
Ron
RN-Submariner  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 12:12:55 PM
Yep!
UKGuy  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 12:25:16 PM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Do you folks in the UK have straight-pull SLR/L1A1's out there in the UK?

thanks,
Ron


personally no.. but i'd love one, and an M1a too
toemag  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 12:25:16 PM


BTW, I'd love to see you get an export license for a GPMG

Behind the Gun trooper numb nuts, to slow sit down again......

They were the days.

Tony.
Tyga  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 12:37:36 PM
If you could make a UK legal s/pull M240/GPMG, you would be a rich man. There is currently no belt fed rifle available in the UK.

But as others have said, it would need to be manufactured from scratch...
RN-Submariner  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 12:52:15 PM

personally no.. but i'd love one, and an M1a too


They can be had, there are at least three that I have seen been used for Highpower in the UK; tend to be very fussy on ammo though I'm led to believe.

IcarusY625  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 1:01:00 PM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
What about straight-pull G3/MP5 clones, RPK's, PKM's, 1919A4 Browning and even M240/L7's?

Here are some GPMG's that we manufactured and these would be the King of Straight Pulls.

img81.imageshack.us/img81/7958/m240rightpu0.jpg

img338.imageshack.us/img338/8961/pkmkx5.jpg

img86.imageshack.us/img86/1189/postwiki1ej8.jpg

Yes, that's a Bren MkII in the background with the daughter

Henderson Defense


Bit big for a run down...I think a straight pull version of these would be to personal taste.....but not mine..
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 1:11:26 PM

Originally Posted By UKGuy:

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Do you folks in the UK have straight-pull SLR/L1A1's out there in the UK?

thanks,
Ron


personally no.. but i'd love one, and an M1a too


If you loved them that much, you'd have bought one by now
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 1:12:11 PM

Originally Posted By RN-Submariner:

personally no.. but i'd love one, and an M1a too


They can be had, there are at least three that I have seen been used for Highpower in the UK; tend to be very fussy on ammo though I'm led to believe.

www.highpowerrifle.co.uk/stats/images/Bruce%20E.jpg


That's my old rifle
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 1:12:47 PM

Originally Posted By Tyga:
If you could make a UK legal s/pull M240/GPMG, you would be a rich man. There is currently no belt fed rifle available in the UK.

But as others have said, it would need to be manufactured from scratch...


The M-60 can be built from scratch with all new made parts. The receiver assembly and components are still currenly manufactured from several sources and all the parts are still available new in the wrap. Though the parts are new, they can range from 60's, 70's, 80's and even brand-new current manufacture.

It would be one EXPENSVE straight-pull though

thanks,
Ron
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 1:13:05 PM

Originally Posted By IcarusY625:

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
What about straight-pull G3/MP5 clones, RPK's, PKM's, 1919A4 Browning and even M240/L7's?

Here are some GPMG's that we manufactured and these would be the King of Straight Pulls.

img81.imageshack.us/img81/7958/m240rightpu0.jpg

img338.imageshack.us/img338/8961/pkmkx5.jpg

img86.imageshack.us/img86/1189/postwiki1ej8.jpg

Yes, that's a Bren MkII in the background with the daughter

Henderson Defense


Bit big for a run down...I think a straight pull version of these would be to personal taste.....but not mine..


Nor mine
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/11/2008 1:17:21 PM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:

Originally Posted By Tyga:
If you could make a UK legal s/pull M240/GPMG, you would be a rich man. There is currently no belt fed rifle available in the UK.

But as others have said, it would need to be manufactured from scratch...


The M-60 can be built from scratch with all new made parts. The receiver assembly and components are still currenly manufactured from several sources and all the parts are still available new in the wrap. Though the parts are new, they can range from 60's, 70's, 80's and even brand-new current manufacture.

It would be one EXPENSVE straight-pull though

thanks,
Ron


Yeah, a straight pull modified machine gun that fires from an open bolt, is inherently innacurate, weighs a ton, and requires link and costs an arm and a leg....

Once upon a tme I might've thought it kewl, but not any more
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 2:01:47 PM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Yeah, a straight pull modified machine gun that fires from an open bolt, is inherently innacurate, weighs a ton, and requires link and costs an arm and a leg....

Once upon a tme I might've thought it kewl, but not any more


I agree with you 100% but I know there are people crazy enough here in the States to purchase them. When they do show up for sale they are usually priced in the $8K+ range and from States that don't allow the posession of automatic weapons for from guys who can' afford to lay down the $30K+ for a transferrable M-60 machinegun. I myself wouldn't buy one but prior to get my license to manfucture firearms, my friend (a London transplant) and I built ourselves some semi-auto 1919A4's. The builds cost us less than $600 each and the "cool factor" was high in relation to cost.

thanks,
Ron
timlad07  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 2:10:45 PM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By UKGuy:

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Do you folks in the UK have straight-pull SLR/L1A1's out there in the UK?

thanks,
Ron


personally no.. but i'd love one,


If you loved them that much, you'd have bought one by now


I'd have one tommorow, if I could find one, there was one on Guntrader a while back
for 3k, don't think I want one that much
vito113  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 4:18:54 PM

Originally Posted By Tyga:
As a rough guide, there are approximatly 130,000 Firearms Certificates in the UK, 370,000 firearms (and 600,000 Shotgun Certificates). The magority of them are land shooters, or precision shooters not interested in AR's.

I think Marks estimate of 5,000 is quite conservative... I beleive it is more like 8,000 AR's and AK's in the UK. You could double that number if you include .22 semi's.

The market is already reasonably crowded, and there are a lot of companies making s/pull AR's. Although if it was cheap AND good quality, it would sell, as this is rarely seen.


Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!
IcarusY625  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 9:09:22 PM

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Tyga:
As a rough guide, there are approximatly 130,000 Firearms Certificates in the UK, 370,000 firearms (and 600,000 Shotgun Certificates). The magority of them are land shooters, or precision shooters not interested in AR's.

I think Marks estimate of 5,000 is quite conservative... I beleive it is more like 8,000 AR's and AK's in the UK. You could double that number if you include .22 semi's.

The market is already reasonably crowded, and there are a lot of companies making s/pull AR's. Although if it was cheap AND good quality, it would sell, as this is rarely seen.


Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!


Ummmmmmm............................do you want to tell him or shall I
HendersonDefense  [Dealer]
3/11/2008 9:47:00 PM

Originally Posted By vito113:

Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!


so..... who's Fat Bob

thanks,
Ron
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/12/2008 2:10:37 AM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!


so..... who's Fat Bob

thanks,
Ron


He's a fat bloke called Bob
IcarusY625  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 2:44:06 AM
..who sells straight pull AR's for over a grand, well over..........
ACR26  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 3:14:33 AM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!


so..... who's Fat Bob

thanks,
Ron


He's a fat bloke called Bob


Who 'owns' a pet cat
vito113  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 5:42:35 AM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Cheap AR's? Do them for under a thousand and Fat Bob goes tits up!


so..... who's Fat Bob

thanks,
Ron



The Beast of Bodmin…
Lancair  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 6:25:10 AM


You poms.
ACR26  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 6:39:45 AM
chambo  [Member]
3/12/2008 12:52:57 PM

Originally Posted By UKGuy:

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Do you folks in the UK have straight-pull SLR/L1A1's out there in the UK?

thanks,
Ron


personally no.. but i'd love one, and an M1a too


I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.
Mousegunner-UK  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 2:36:04 PM

Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
What about straight-pull G3/MP5 clones, RPK's, PKM's, 1919A4 Browning and even M240/L7's?

Here are some GPMG's that we manufactured and these would be the King of Straight Pulls.

img81.imageshack.us/img81/7958/m240rightpu0.jpg

img338.imageshack.us/img338/8961/pkmkx5.jpg

img86.imageshack.us/img86/1189/postwiki1ej8.jpg

Yes, that's a Bren MkII in the background with the daughter

Henderson Defense


Ohio Ordanace use to make a single shot BAR in 30 06 a few years ago on brand new receivers. They actually said that they would consider a production run again if there was a viable market. Only problem being that it would have to retail in the UK for approx £2100 once you take into account the VAT etc etc.
timlad07  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 3:14:22 PM

Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


So did I.............. It cost me 350 squid
chambo  [Member]
3/12/2008 4:05:47 PM

Originally Posted By timlad07:

Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


So did I.............. It cost me 350 squid


I asked the shooter at Bisley how much he paid for it. £850 he said, and that was second hand! I think I paid £250 for my L1A1. It was the Australian issue with wood furniture. Wish I'd taken some photos now. Didn't take any pics of my .38super race gun I had built for me a few months before the handgun ban either.
Mousegunner-UK  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 5:21:07 PM


Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


Keep watching this space as there will be a FNC variant (5.56mm) straight pull on sale here in the UK in the near future.

And there will be no problems with extraction as I have tried it out using a variety of commercial and mil surp.

That's all I can say for the time being

vito113  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 5:57:53 PM

Originally Posted By Mousegunner-UK:

Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


Keep watching this space as there will be a FNC variant (5.56mm) straight pull on sale here in the UK in the near future.

And there will be no problems with extraction as I have tried it out using a variety of commercial and mil surp.

That's all I can say for the time being




We can all be …




Al Pacino in H.E.A.T!!!



UKGuy  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 5:57:59 PM
isnt't that the gun deniro used in heat?
vito113  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 6:01:54 PM

Originally Posted By UKGuy:
isnt't that the gun deniro used in heat?



Gets you a ban over in GD!
streetfighter  [Moderator]
3/12/2008 6:06:10 PM

Originally Posted By Mousegunner-UK:

Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


Keep watching this space as there will be a FNC variant (5.56mm) straight pull on sale here in the UK in the near future.

And there will be no problems with extraction as I have tried it out using a variety of commercial and mil surp.

That's all I can say for the time being

[shameless attempt at advertising]

You've said enough

BTW, when you say shortly, what exactly do you mean? Can you be specific?

A certain rather large and rotund gentleman from the Bodmin area has been saying that about a self-unloading carbine for several years now which according to the last report, will be ready mid march.....which is this weekend coming

Wait a minute,......OMFGWTFBBQ, it'll be here this weekend , who's gonna be 1st in the queue?
vito113  [Team Member]
3/12/2008 6:14:40 PM

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Mousegunner-UK:

Originally Posted By chambo:
I had an L1A1 before the '88 semi auto rifle ban. Excellent bit of kit and very accurate. I'd like to have one again (even in straight pull) I saw a Brazilian FN-FAL at a comp at Bisley a while ago. Very nice it was too, but the guy was having problems with sticky extraction.


Keep watching this space as there will be a FNC variant (5.56mm) straight pull on sale here in the UK in the near future.

And there will be no problems with extraction as I have tried it out using a variety of commercial and mil surp.

That's all I can say for the time being

[shameless attempt at advertising]

You've said enough

BTW, when you say shortly, what exactly do you mean? Can you be specific?

A certain rather large and rotund gentleman from the Bodmin area has been saying that about a self-unloading carbine for several years now which according to the last report, will be ready mid march.....which is this weekend coming

Wait a minute,......OMFGWTFBBQ, it'll be here this weekend , who's gonna be 1st in the queue?



Did he specify which year the March would be in?